Live Chat with Trevor Phillips
Trevor Phillips, the Chair of the Equality and Human Rights Commission (EHRC), answered your questions on issues around discrimination, racism, religion and more.
Trevor: Hi everybody.
CptCoatHanger: What is your stance on positive discrimination? Is there ever a place for it, and if so, why and where?
Trevor: Well, this gets very complicated because it's about definitions. The question is, how do you use the law to make up for historical unfairness that leaves some people today at a disadvantage because of what someone else did a century or more ago? There are two ways to approach it.
One way is positive discrimination. This is where you say because you are black or a woman or because of some other aspect, you are bound to be disadvantaged, so we are going to give you a special extra privilege. For example, reserve certain jobs for you. We're against that because we don't think anyone should be privileged just because of what they are or their history.
On the other hand, we do support positive action. What does that mean? It means that where you think giving someone an extra piece of training or encouragement will get them to the starting line and allow them to compete, then you should be able to do that. So, for example, over the past ten years there have been special programmes to encourage girls and young women to go into science such as special days at university or at science museums. You could describe this as an extra advantage but I would say most of us would accept that girls might need that extra bit of encouragement. I went through a science and engineering university where the male to female ratio was 13-1 so I know what I'm talking about.
Carlito: Your biography says you spent your formative years in Guyana, attended uni in London, and worked extensively for the Greater London Assembly. How much time have you spent in the rest of the UK and do you think that you can apply laws or policies on race equally to London as to the UK as a whole?
Trevor: That's an interesting point. I spent quite a lot of time out of London in Manchester; my brother lived there for quite a long time. I also know Bristol and York quite well, as my daughters are at university there. And of course, when I was president of the National Union of Students (NUS) I had to go pretty regularly to all of the higher education institutions around the country.
Today I try to spend at least one day out of London every week (though I don't always manage it) to try and get a feel for what people outside of London are saying and feeling. I agree, the rest of the country is completely different and on some things quite the opposite of London.
On the question of law, although the situation may be different across the country, the principal of equality, whether it's to do with race or sexual orientation or anything else, is the same wherever you are. We might apply it slightly differently and one thing may be more important in one place than another, but when it comes down to the questions of equality and discrimination the issue is the same wherever you are.
I'mWithStupid: Channel 4 did a poll in 2007 that showed only 3% of British Muslims were actually represented by the Muslim Council of Britain. Are groups like this given undeserved status by the government? And, do you think it's problematic to give a frequent voice to such groups rather than listening to individuals?
Trevor: Well, that's certainly not the case with the Muslim Council of Britain at the moment because we know that the government is to some extent in dispute with them. The trick here is not to think of any particular group as representative of a whole set of communities. There are nearly 2 million Muslims in Britain and they come from all races and many countries. To suggest that they all speak with one voice would be ridiculous.
The government, and everyone else, has to accept that there will be a variety of voices to which they have to listen. Having said that, some are obviously more significant than others. As long as nobody claims to be the sole voice of the Muslim community, I think it's important for government and organisations like ours, to make sure they are listening to all those voices.
Last night in Manchester we had a big event to announce the names of the most influential Muslim women in Britain. That was a brilliant event because there were women from all kinds of backgrounds including media, law sport, politics and business. The top woman was Saeeda Warsi. I have to say the interesting thing was that this amazing variety of women all spoke up for themselves and didn't seem to need an organisation to speak on their behalf.
ShyBoy: Do you believe there is room for racism in comedy?
Trevor: I don't think there's room for racism anywhere. I think that making fun of people purely because of their race and putting them down is as cruel as making fun of them because they have a disability or because they are women.
However, that doesn't mean you can't be funny about the fact that people are different from each other. There are legions of black or Asian comics, like Omid Djalili, who I know is doing lots of college tours, who make you roll about, particularly when they're talking about their own communities; never mind Americans like Chris Rock who are just brilliant.
So I think you can have comedy about cultural or racial difference which is just funny without being racist. Eddie Izzard is brilliant about cross-dressing without putting down those who are transvestites.
Piccolo: In the recent case of the Islington registrar who lost her job because, as a Christian, she refused to celebrate civil partnerships, was she right to claim that this impacted on her freedom of religious belief?
Trevor: No, I don't think so. I have some understanding of what she felt but each and every one of us has to understand that equal treatment isn't an optional extra. If we work in public service, we have to give everybody that we serve the same dignity and respect and the same service. Otherwise, what's to stop male teachers who think that girls shouldn't do physics, patting them on the head as they used to and saying 'don't worry your pretty little head this is all too hard for you'. The fact is, when Miss Ladele signed on, she signed on to serve everybody who came through the door and if she felt she couldn't do that she shouldn't really have applied for the job. You wouldn't apply for a job as a wine taster if you were tee-total would you?
CptCoatHanger: I've heard claims from you about institutional racism in the Labour Party. Can you explain a bit more about your thoughts on this?
Trevor: Well, what I actually said was that I thought that all political parties would have some difficulty in advancing minority candidates. I wasn't specifically referring to the Labour Party. In essence, I think the British people as a whole don't really have an aversion to the idea of electing non-white MPs or Councillors, even in areas where there is a tiny or no ethnic minority. However, I do think the way that political parties work means that increasingly their candidates for parliament get selected from a very narrow group of people. These include folks who've been to uni, who might have worked in the party, or worked for an MP as a researcher - people who have the time, energy and money to go around the country getting themselves known.
It's very hard for most people from minority communities to do this and that's why parliament recently set up the Speaker's Conference, which is essentially an enquiry by a group of MPs to try to find ways of getting more women, more people from ethnic minorities and more disabled people into parliament. We're very keen to support that project. In fact, we've proposed that there should be a national scheme of internships that would give people (particularly young people) the chance to work at Westminster and at the assemblies in Scotland, Wales and London. By doing this, they could get the experience which is currently only open to a select few and that may help them to compete for seats as well.
The MPs like that idea, but we also suggested that in order to give people more of a chance, no MP should serve for more than four terms i.e. 20 years. I'm afraid they didn't fancy that much.
DancingHorse: What about electing MPs with religious inclinations? Do you think people these days would be tempted to shy away from someone who was Christian, for example?
Trevor: I don't think so. We've got a Christian PM who is the son of a minister and the last prime minister was a Christian. The leader of the opposition sends his children to a Christian Church of England school. I don't get any sense that there is an electoral disadvantage to being a Christian. However, I think most people these days do look at candidates for political office 'in the round'. Their religion, belief or even lack of faith is probably only one of the things that people consider, even those who have a strong faith themselves.
"I think you can have comedy about cultural or racial difference which is just funny without being racist. Eddie Izzard is brilliant about cross-dressing without putting down those who are transvestites."
We are a long way away from the days when some cities were divided by religion; for example, Liverpool or to some extent Glasgow. I certainly doubt anybody would not vote for a candidate because they were Jewish, which, was an issue a couple of generations ago.
Smoothoperator: Do you think more needs to be done by the government to reduce the stigma attached to mental health problems, namely illnesses such as schizophrenia? A lot of work is done by charities such as Mind, it's just that the media always portray schizophrenics as being just 'schizophrenic'. They make a sharp point about labelling people when, at the end of the day, we're all individuals with our own stories to tell.
Trevor: I agree. I think this is an incredibly important point. I think that mental health is one of the last big taboos - one of the things you can't really talk about or tell people about without a reasonable expectation that they will dismiss you as incapable or even start to be afraid of you.
I do think this is an area where we need to talk more openly and be more open-minded. Some people, for example Stephen Fry, who made a film not so long ago about his own mental health condition, are trying to make it more acceptable, but I think we could all do more. And, I think that some of the fears that people have really would be dispelled if we were more open. It's only about ten years ago when the prime minister of Norway announced he was going to take some time out of his job in order to deal with his mental health condition which led to depression. It did him no harm politically and he was able to return to his job. That's the kind of public attitude that we need to encourage.
Smoothoperator: Yes, from my own experience of the illness, much of the problem stems directly from what people think about you, and how they then act towards you.
Carlito: Should the government spread resources equally between fighting hostility against religions and fighting hostility against races?
Trevor: It's hard to answer that question, which religions and which races? I think the straight answer is that you can't really decide to spread money in that way. All you can do is say to yourself, where is prejudice causing the greatest harm, both geographically and in terms of division between communities? That's where you should focus money and effort.
I'mWithStupid: Did the Post Office worker who refused to serve people who didn't speak English have the right idea, or was his employer right to sack him?
Trevor: I think the accurate position is that they moved him to another job rather than sack him. I would say that he was right to make the argument that everybody should try to learn and speak English when they are in a public space or communicating with people they don't already know. Where I think he went wrong was to try to force people to do something that many of them may not be capable of doing.
For example, in a post office there will probably be many elderly people whose first and only language might be Hindi or Yiddish, say. It's surely unfair to expect that person automatically to go out and learn English in order to pick up their benefits or their parcels.
I think the rule is that we should encourage people to use English as the main social language otherwise they're always in danger of being cut off from the community or being excluded from opportunities. However, we can't compel people and we should as far as we can avoid adding to their exclusion.
ShyBoy: How do we break the cycle of racism in deprived areas of the UK, where for one reason or another, racial tensions have led to prejudice which is just reinforced by the communities, instead of challenged like in many other communities (i.e. schools, universities, professional workplaces, on this website?)
Trevor: I think there are two important things to do. First, to make sure that all the communities' institutions whether that's schools, workplaces, hospitals or anything else, are treating people equally, irrespective of their colour or race. There can be a tendency to assume that the dominant group in the area, which might not always be white, is the one that sets the pattern that everyone else has to conform to, that's wrong. We're a diverse country and our institutions should reflect that.
The second thing is much simpler to state and much harder to do. It's to make sure that we all talk to each other across the lines of race and religion. The more we meet each other, the better we understand each other and I would gamble the better we'll get along.
That's why, for example, we are supporting summer camps for young people that bring together people from all over the country from very different backgrounds. We've done this in a small way for the last couple of years and the experience is that when people leave after the summer their eyes have been opened to the way other people live and the way they think-everybody benefits.
DancingHorse: It would seem to me to be the other way around. I grew up in a deprived area and it was very well accepted that I am a religious person. However, since studying at Edinburgh University I have found that I have been bullied and ostracised among white, middle classed academics, who surely should know better?
Trevor: I'm very sorry to hear that and I think that people who do that can often be as bigoted as the people that they are putting down are supposed to be. That is to say, I know that there are some people who genuinely believe that religious folk are themselves prejudiced against, for example, lesbian and gay people. I doubt if this is true of most people of faith and it is therefore unfair to pick on individuals.
If there is a genuine problem here, it is really worth your while getting in touch with our helpline to report it because we may be able to offer some advice and support. The number is 0845 6046610 or 0845 6045510, that's the Scottish helpline.
DancingHorse: Thank you.
Trevor: We hope that helps.
Smoothoperator: Do you think the newspapers should print more success stories?
Trevor: In short, yes. But if I'm honest, speaking as a journalist, one of the first things I learnt was that a plane landing safely is not a story. A plane that comes off the runway and goes through the airport lounge definitely is! So although I think we could do a lot more to be positive and tell people about things that are out of the ordinary and good, we have to be realistic and accept that the reason people buy a lot of media is because they do want to know about things which are either disturbing or threatening. Why? Because frankly they want to make sure they get out of the way of danger.
However, I really agree with the view that we can all do better and in these grim times I do think that most of us would quite like to buy a newspaper, or switch on the radio or go online and see something that makes us feel a bit happier.
I think one of the reasons that people were so interested in the Jade Goody story was not the bad news but the fact that here was somebody who made something of her life and despite ending it in a really painful and distressing way, did something wonderful for her own family as well as encouraging many young people to think about their health. So sometimes you can combine both the bad news story with something uplifting.
Trevor: Thanks for all your questions. I really enjoyed this and I hope TheSite.org team will ask me to come back some time.
Live Chat with Trevor Phillips
Trevor Phillips, the Chair of the Equality and Human Rights Commission (EHRC), answered your questions on issues around discrimination, racism, religion and more.
Trevor: Hi everybody.
CptCoatHanger: What is your stance on positive discrimination? Is there ever a place for it, and if so, why and where?
Trevor: Well, this gets very complicated because it's about definitions. The question is, how do you use the law to make up for historical unfairness that leaves some people today at a disadvantage because of what someone else did a century or more ago? There are two ways to approach it.
One way is positive discrimination. This is where you say because you are black or a woman or because of some other aspect, you are bound to be disadvantaged, so we are going to give you a special extra privilege. For example, reserve certain jobs for you. We're against that because we don't think anyone should be privileged just because of what they are or their history.
On the other hand, we do support positive action. What does that mean? It means that where you think giving someone an extra piece of training or encouragement will get them to the starting line and allow them to compete, then you should be able to do that. So, for example, over the past ten years there have been special programmes to encourage girls and young women to go into science such as special days at university or at science museums. You could describe this as an extra advantage but I would say most of us would accept that girls might need that extra bit of encouragement. I went through a science and engineering university where the male to female ratio was 13-1 so I know what I'm talking about.
Carlito: Your biography says you spent your formative years in Guyana, attended uni in London, and worked extensively for the Greater London Assembly. How much time have you spent in the rest of the UK and do you think that you can apply laws or policies on race equally to London as to the UK as a whole?
Trevor: That's an interesting point. I spent quite a lot of time out of London in Manchester; my brother lived there for quite a long time. I also know Bristol and York quite well, as my daughters are at university there. And of course, when I was president of the National Union of Students (NUS) I had to go pretty regularly to all of the higher education institutions around the country.
Today I try to spend at least one day out of London every week (though I don't always manage it) to try and get a feel for what people outside of London are saying and feeling. I agree, the rest of the country is completely different and on some things quite the opposite of London.
On the question of law, although the situation may be different across the country, the principal of equality, whether it's to do with race or sexual orientation or anything else, is the same wherever you are. We might apply it slightly differently and one thing may be more important in one place than another, but when it comes down to the questions of equality and discrimination the issue is the same wherever you are.
I'mWithStupid: Channel 4 did a poll in 2007 that showed only 3% of British Muslims were actually represented by the Muslim Council of Britain. Are groups like this given undeserved status by the government? And, do you think it's problematic to give a frequent voice to such groups rather than listening to individuals?
Trevor: Well, that's certainly not the case with the Muslim Council of Britain at the moment because we know that the government is to some extent in dispute with them. The trick here is not to think of any particular group as representative of a whole set of communities. There are nearly 2 million Muslims in Britain and they come from all races and many countries. To suggest that they all speak with one voice would be ridiculous.
The government, and everyone else, has to accept that there will be a variety of voices to which they have to listen. Having said that, some are obviously more significant than others. As long as nobody claims to be the sole voice of the Muslim community, I think it's important for government and organisations like ours, to make sure they are listening to all those voices.
Last night in Manchester we had a big event to announce the names of the most influential Muslim women in Britain. That was a brilliant event because there were women from all kinds of backgrounds including media, law sport, politics and business. The top woman was Saeeda Warsi. I have to say the interesting thing was that this amazing variety of women all spoke up for themselves and didn't seem to need an organisation to speak on their behalf.
ShyBoy: Do you believe there is room for racism in comedy?
Trevor: I don't think there's room for racism anywhere. I think that making fun of people purely because of their race and putting them down is as cruel as making fun of them because they have a disability or because they are women.
However, that doesn't mean you can't be funny about the fact that people are different from each other. There are legions of black or Asian comics, like Omid Djalili, who I know is doing lots of college tours, who make you roll about, particularly when they're talking about their own communities; never mind Americans like Chris Rock who are just brilliant.
So I think you can have comedy about cultural or racial difference which is just funny without being racist. Eddie Izzard is brilliant about cross-dressing without putting down those who are transvestites.
Piccolo: In the recent case of the Islington registrar who lost her job because, as a Christian, she refused to celebrate civil partnerships, was she right to claim that this impacted on her freedom of religious belief?
Trevor: No, I don't think so. I have some understanding of what she felt but each and every one of us has to understand that equal treatment isn't an optional extra. If we work in public service, we have to give everybody that we serve the same dignity and respect and the same service. Otherwise, what's to stop male teachers who think that girls shouldn't do physics, patting them on the head as they used to and saying 'don't worry your pretty little head this is all too hard for you'. The fact is, when Miss Ladele signed on, she signed on to serve everybody who came through the door and if she felt she couldn't do that she shouldn't really have applied for the job. You wouldn't apply for a job as a wine taster if you were tee-total would you?
CptCoatHanger: I've heard claims from you about institutional racism in the Labour Party. Can you explain a bit more about your thoughts on this?
Trevor: Well, what I actually said was that I thought that all political parties would have some difficulty in advancing minority candidates. I wasn't specifically referring to the Labour Party. In essence, I think the British people as a whole don't really have an aversion to the idea of electing non-white MPs or Councillors, even in areas where there is a tiny or no ethnic minority. However, I do think the way that political parties work means that increasingly their candidates for parliament get selected from a very narrow group of people. These include folks who've been to uni, who might have worked in the party, or worked for an MP as a researcher - people who have the time, energy and money to go around the country getting themselves known.
It's very hard for most people from minority communities to do this and that's why parliament recently set up the Speaker's Conference, which is essentially an enquiry by a group of MPs to try to find ways of getting more women, more people from ethnic minorities and more disabled people into parliament. We're very keen to support that project. In fact, we've proposed that there should be a national scheme of internships that would give people (particularly young people) the chance to work at Westminster and at the assemblies in Scotland, Wales and London. By doing this, they could get the experience which is currently only open to a select few and that may help them to compete for seats as well.
The MPs like that idea, but we also suggested that in order to give people more of a chance, no MP should serve for more than four terms i.e. 20 years. I'm afraid they didn't fancy that much.
DancingHorse: What about electing MPs with religious inclinations? Do you think people these days would be tempted to shy away from someone who was Christian, for example?
Trevor: I don't think so. We've got a Christian PM who is the son of a minister and the last prime minister was a Christian. The leader of the opposition sends his children to a Christian Church of England school. I don't get any sense that there is an electoral disadvantage to being a Christian. However, I think most people these days do look at candidates for political office 'in the round'. Their religion, belief or even lack of faith is probably only one of the things that people consider, even those who have a strong faith themselves.
We are a long way away from the days when some cities were divided by religion; for example, Liverpool or to some extent Glasgow. I certainly doubt anybody would not vote for a candidate because they were Jewish, which, was an issue a couple of generations ago.
Smoothoperator: Do you think more needs to be done by the government to reduce the stigma attached to mental health problems, namely illnesses such as schizophrenia? A lot of work is done by charities such as Mind, it's just that the media always portray schizophrenics as being just 'schizophrenic'. They make a sharp point about labelling people when, at the end of the day, we're all individuals with our own stories to tell.
Trevor: I agree. I think this is an incredibly important point. I think that mental health is one of the last big taboos - one of the things you can't really talk about or tell people about without a reasonable expectation that they will dismiss you as incapable or even start to be afraid of you.
I do think this is an area where we need to talk more openly and be more open-minded. Some people, for example Stephen Fry, who made a film not so long ago about his own mental health condition, are trying to make it more acceptable, but I think we could all do more. And, I think that some of the fears that people have really would be dispelled if we were more open. It's only about ten years ago when the prime minister of Norway announced he was going to take some time out of his job in order to deal with his mental health condition which led to depression. It did him no harm politically and he was able to return to his job. That's the kind of public attitude that we need to encourage.
Smoothoperator: Yes, from my own experience of the illness, much of the problem stems directly from what people think about you, and how they then act towards you.
Carlito: Should the government spread resources equally between fighting hostility against religions and fighting hostility against races?
Trevor: It's hard to answer that question, which religions and which races? I think the straight answer is that you can't really decide to spread money in that way. All you can do is say to yourself, where is prejudice causing the greatest harm, both geographically and in terms of division between communities? That's where you should focus money and effort.
I'mWithStupid: Did the Post Office worker who refused to serve people who didn't speak English have the right idea, or was his employer right to sack him?
Trevor: I think the accurate position is that they moved him to another job rather than sack him. I would say that he was right to make the argument that everybody should try to learn and speak English when they are in a public space or communicating with people they don't already know. Where I think he went wrong was to try to force people to do something that many of them may not be capable of doing.
For example, in a post office there will probably be many elderly people whose first and only language might be Hindi or Yiddish, say. It's surely unfair to expect that person automatically to go out and learn English in order to pick up their benefits or their parcels.
I think the rule is that we should encourage people to use English as the main social language otherwise they're always in danger of being cut off from the community or being excluded from opportunities. However, we can't compel people and we should as far as we can avoid adding to their exclusion.
ShyBoy: How do we break the cycle of racism in deprived areas of the UK, where for one reason or another, racial tensions have led to prejudice which is just reinforced by the communities, instead of challenged like in many other communities (i.e. schools, universities, professional workplaces, on this website?)
Trevor: I think there are two important things to do. First, to make sure that all the communities' institutions whether that's schools, workplaces, hospitals or anything else, are treating people equally, irrespective of their colour or race. There can be a tendency to assume that the dominant group in the area, which might not always be white, is the one that sets the pattern that everyone else has to conform to, that's wrong. We're a diverse country and our institutions should reflect that.
The second thing is much simpler to state and much harder to do. It's to make sure that we all talk to each other across the lines of race and religion. The more we meet each other, the better we understand each other and I would gamble the better we'll get along.
That's why, for example, we are supporting summer camps for young people that bring together people from all over the country from very different backgrounds. We've done this in a small way for the last couple of years and the experience is that when people leave after the summer their eyes have been opened to the way other people live and the way they think-everybody benefits.
DancingHorse: It would seem to me to be the other way around. I grew up in a deprived area and it was very well accepted that I am a religious person. However, since studying at Edinburgh University I have found that I have been bullied and ostracised among white, middle classed academics, who surely should know better?
Trevor: I'm very sorry to hear that and I think that people who do that can often be as bigoted as the people that they are putting down are supposed to be. That is to say, I know that there are some people who genuinely believe that religious folk are themselves prejudiced against, for example, lesbian and gay people. I doubt if this is true of most people of faith and it is therefore unfair to pick on individuals.
If there is a genuine problem here, it is really worth your while getting in touch with our helpline to report it because we may be able to offer some advice and support. The number is 0845 6046610 or 0845 6045510, that's the Scottish helpline.
DancingHorse: Thank you.
Trevor: We hope that helps.
Smoothoperator: Do you think the newspapers should print more success stories?
Trevor: In short, yes. But if I'm honest, speaking as a journalist, one of the first things I learnt was that a plane landing safely is not a story. A plane that comes off the runway and goes through the airport lounge definitely is! So although I think we could do a lot more to be positive and tell people about things that are out of the ordinary and good, we have to be realistic and accept that the reason people buy a lot of media is because they do want to know about things which are either disturbing or threatening. Why? Because frankly they want to make sure they get out of the way of danger.
However, I really agree with the view that we can all do better and in these grim times I do think that most of us would quite like to buy a newspaper, or switch on the radio or go online and see something that makes us feel a bit happier.
I think one of the reasons that people were so interested in the Jade Goody story was not the bad news but the fact that here was somebody who made something of her life and despite ending it in a really painful and distressing way, did something wonderful for her own family as well as encouraging many young people to think about their health. So sometimes you can combine both the bad news story with something uplifting.
Trevor: Thanks for all your questions. I really enjoyed this and I hope TheSite.org team will ask me to come back some time.