Live debate: Drunk and in danger?
On the back of our video debates about alcohol, sex and risky behavior, we hosted a live debate in the chat room to hear your views.
Jim V: Well then folks, for people who didn't see the videos, I'll start with a general question. How do people feel about alcohol, is it a big part of your nights out?
Randomgirl: I can take it or leave it.
**Helen**: Is that the same for your mates do you think Randomgirl?
Randomgirl: When I was younger it was very important. I think now it depends which of my friends. It varies. I don't often do big nights out now, more quiet nights down the pub.
Jim V: How about everyone else?
purplestarfish: I've never really been much of a drinker.
I'm With Stupid: Sometimes, it depends on what sort of night. There are definitely nights where I go out for a few drinks and then others where you go to watch a band or a comedy show and the drink is incidental.
Jim V: Do people feel the atmosphere is different when you're drinking, compared to a night when you drink less?
purplestarfish: It can be hard if the people you're with drink a lot and you're sober.
Randomgirl: Drinking less, the atmosphere can be better.
I'm With Stupid: I agree.
Randomgirl: Unless you feel like drinking lots.
I'm With Stupid: Lol
MrCold: You can always pretend. I did it once, though it was a joke. Everyone knew I wasn't drinking.
I'm With Stupid: I reckon it's more relaxing to drink less, whereas drinking more is during those mad night out situations.
purplestarfish: But if you're the only one drinking less, it can get quite stressful if all your friends start doing things you think they'll regret.
Randomgirl: Last time I drank loads was at my flat at a cocktail party. I was sick twice the next day. I ended up getting off with a couple of my (female) friends.
Jim V: Talking of not drinking when other people are - do people think, even today, that on a night out someone not drinking is still looked down on?
purplestarfish: Don't really think so.
I'm With Stupid: I went out on Saturday. One of our friends wasn't drinking and I didn't really notice to be honest. The only difference is they tend to get bored quicker and go home earlier. It's probably worse for the person not drinking than anyone else.
Randomgirl: When I was 18 I couldn't drink for a bit because I was on medication and I felt really self conscious on nights out.
**Helen**: Has anyone had to look after a mate recently on a night out? What was it like?
purplestarfish: I had a friend who drank too much and got pretty ill (had to call an ambulance). It wasn't really that cool. But that was when we were about 14. Not really sure if his drinking habits have changed much, would be interesting to see if he still goes that far.
Randomgirl: Yeah, it happened when we were at uni. We had to get the ambulance out for one of our mates.
I'm With Stupid: Only in the sense that you try not to lose each other if there's only two of you left, which happened on Saturday. I used to have a mate at uni who went through a phase of getting into fights a lot, and we had to break it up and bring him home. After a few times though, we all got tired of doing it and didn't bother any more.
purplestarfish: I don't mind keeping an eye out for friends when we're out, but when I have to constantly pick up the pieces it gets a bit tiresome. I get annoyed by people who blame their actions on being drunk, like its some sort of excuse, grrr.
Jim V: Do you think that drinking makes you a different person then? Does it make you do things you wouldn't do otherwise or just give you permission to behave differently?
I'm With Stupid: Haha, my philosophy is that if you're a wanker after a few pints, you're just a wanker anyway. It also means it only takes me an hour to ask a girl out, rather than a week.
purplestarfish: Haha sounds good!
Randomgirl: It makes you more confident.
purplestarfish: Yeah.
Randomgirl: I used to get up to mischief as a drunken teenager.
Jim V: Like what Randomgirl? (If you don't mind saying.)
Randomgirl: I once gave my work colleague a blow job and deposited it in another work colleagues mouth when I was 16, general sexual stuff, embarrassing things.
**Helen** Has anyone had an experience where they felt less safe because they were drunk or you've looked back the next day and realised you were more vulnerable than you thought?
I'm With Stupid: Yeah, I once thought I was perfectly safe on a tightrope. It didn't take me until the next day to realise I wasn't though. Broke my nose. Face first into the ground. Good party though.
**Helen**: Ouch!
purplestarfish: Reminds me of that advert that was on TV.
Scary Monster: Not personally, but Ive watched someone who thought they could do things they couldn't when they were drunk.
Randomgirl: I was sexually assaulted on a night out, but I wasn't drunk. I wouldn't have been there if drink wasn't involved as I was out drinking with my school friends (we were 15).
Jim V: I'm sorry to hear that Randomgirl.
**Helen**: Was the other person drunk?
Randomgirl: Not that I'm aware of. I think he was a pervert.
purplestarfish: Hmm, I've got into some trouble in the early hours, but think thats mainly down to the other person being drunk. But saying that, if I had had more to drink, it may have been harder to deal with the situation.
I'm With Stupid: Yeah, I think that it's being around drunk people that can make you at risk, more than being drunk yourself. Although I suppose you're better able to get yourself out of a confrontation if you're sober.
Scary Monster: I don't tend to drink to the point where I feel unsafe. I witnessed a brilliant one though, a guy thought he was not that drunk and entirely capable of balancing along a large log through a fire. No prizes for guessing he fell off, his leg hit the embers and the embers stuck to the hair on his legs. He had huge burn marks in the morning. I took him off through the woods on the campsite, up to the toilets, took his shorts off and put his leg under the tap. The conversation the following morning went along the lines of ' I would have never have let you done that if I was sober'.
I'm With Stupid: There was one time in Blackpool when I was monumentally drunk. I had to try and find a small B&B across town out of the thousands there. I did actually find that quite scary the next day.
**Helen** Do you think that you might trust someone you 'kind of know' on a night out after a few drinks, more so than if you were sober?
purplestarfish: Maybe, I think everyone becomes more friendly after a few drinks. Friend of a friend at the start of the night somehow ends up as your best mate by the end.
Randomgirl: That's what I did, trusted someone I shouldn't have.
I'm With Stupid: Yeah there's that. But I wouldn't say I trust them any more than normal. I'm just friendlier.
**Helen**: Purplestarfish, do you think it's good or can it be a problem?
purplestarfish: It can be a problem I think, because when you're drunk its harder to tell someone's true intentions. I think you become less aware and don't pick up on things that you would if you were sober, generally of course.
Scary Monster: I don't tend to go out and get very drunk unless I'm with people I know and trust well, mainly because I always see the nice side in people when I'm drunk.
Jim V: Talking of intentions, if someone of the opposite sex offered to buy you a drink, would you feel it's a friendly thing or would you feel there's something implied there?
Randomgirl: There is something implied unless it's a mate.
**Helen**: Which is...
Randomgirl: That you're interested in talking to them for about as long as it takes you to drink a drink.
Scary Monster: I'd take something implied unless it was a friend. Although I've found my male friends are very insistent on not letting me buy my own drinks when they're drunk.
Randomgirl: I never accept drinks from people who aren't friends.
Scary Monster: I'd generally only take it as implying interest as a starting point.
Randomgirl: You can't accept a drink and then not even talk to someone can you?
Jim V: Let's turn the question around. If you offer to buy someone a drink, rather than accept a drink, what does that imply to you?
Randomgirl: I only offer drinks to my friends.
purplestarfish: To be honest, I've never offered to buy someone a drink, apart from friends.
Jim V: How about friends of friends later on in a night?
Randomgirl: If they are in the round then yeah.
purplestarfish: Maybe, if we've got chatting, but yeah more of a group thing.
I'm With Stupid: I don't buy drinks for girls I'm interested in usually, only friends. In which case, it implies "I don't care how expensive the next club is compared to here, you owe me a drink."
PreciousAndLoveIt: I don't have this problem yet. I can't get the rounds in. However, I have had drinks bought for me.
purplestarfish: I still struggle with the "getting the round in" etiquette. I find the ordering hard, as a pretty much non-drinker.
**Helen** Precious - from someone you didn't know?
PreciousAndLoveIt: Yeah, but I kindly refused it, haha. I have taken a drink from someone I don't know once though, but that's because he was talking to one of my mates and it was a can so he couldn't sneak anything into it, otherwise I wouldn't have taken it.
Jim V: How do people feel about the attitude that if something like a sexual assault happens to someone, then what they wear or if they were drunk plays a part in it?
purplestarfish: I think it's stupid. No one asks to be sexually assaulted, ever.
MrCold: I think the opinion isn't they were really asking for it, only that it's risky behaviour (that's not saying I agree with it).
"I think that consent shouldn't just be about saying no, but instead making sure its a clear yes."
purplestarfish: Yeah.
I'm With Stupid: Depends what they say. What someone's wearing is bullshit. So is being drunk in terms of contributing to it. However, I have no issue with offering advice to reduce the likelihood, which may include advice about drinking habits.
purplestarfish: Yup, I mean when girls are passing out wearing very little, not saying it should be this way, but they are probably putting themselves at more risk. Even at house parties and things.
Jim V: Why do you think other people still think that what a woman is wearing or how drunk she is affects whether assault even happened?
MrCold: I'd say that it's two different things. I'd think that to a rapist or such, someone who's stupidly drunk is an easier victim. So in that sense it does affect them being targeted.
Randomgirl: Yeah, aside from the sexual assault (which was very serious) which happened when I wasn't drunk, I've been taken advantage of when I have been drunk, just stuff like blow jobs and stuff though.
Scary Monster: If you're not drunk, or at least not hammered then you've generally got your wits about you.
PreciousAndLoveIt: It's a lot harder to fight someone off when you're drunk.
Scary Monster: Also, if you're not wearing something attractive, then you're not an eye catching target in the first place. I think it stems from the not being able to fight someone off when you're drunk though. If you're aware of your surroundings, you tend to stay away from riskier situations.
Randomgirl: I don't think you have to be attractive to be a target though. It's not usually about sex; it's more about violence and power.
I'm With Stupid: It's ridiculous. Doesn't everybody try to make themselves look attractive for a night out? It really is only a small step away from claiming that a woman who doesn't wear a burkha contributed to her rape. It also insults men too, suggesting they're some sort of animal, who can't control their urges.
Jim V: Thinking about consent, how do people think that should work, especially around alcohol?
purplestarfish: I think that consent shouldn't just be about saying no, but instead making sure its a clear yes.
Randomgirl: Definitely purplestarfish.
MrCold: If both parties are fair and just, they should do nothing if they think the other person might be too out of it.
Scary Monster: I think the other problem with consent is that people often don't seem to consider that the guy might not be in a state to make sure the girl is definitely saying yes.
PreciousAndLoveIt: If you say no whilst youre relatively sober and then they proceed to make you drunker just to get a yes (or being unable to say anything) then it's horrible and I would almost class that as rape.
MrCold: I disagree with the "almost" part.
Randomgirl: Yeah, that is rape. You don't have to say no for it to be rape.
PreciousAndLoveIt: Well yeah, however, how can you prove that it wasn't consented? Or they weren't in the right mind to say no? It depends on how you look at it.
Randomgirl: That doesn't change whether it was rape or not, just because you can't prove it.
PreciousAndLoveIt: I know.
MrCold: Proving things is a different (very sad) story entirely.
Randomgirl: You can rarely prove a rape has happened, but it does happen all the time, every day all over the world.
purplestarfish: Sometimes guys can get a bit annoyed if you suddenly come out with a no, and then that can create a whole other situation.
Scary Monster: I'm not defending rape in any way here, but it always seems that when you are talking about two drunk people, the emphasis is that the guy has to take responsibility for the girl being sober enough to make a decision. That kind of says its alright for a girl to get too drunk to make a decision, but not for a guy.
**Helen**: So if you had to describe the law on consent to someone from another country - what would you tell them?
I'm With Stupid: I'd tell them it's your job to make sure the other person consents. Which I think can be implied consent. I think every "stage" up to getting into bed with someone is implied consent for the next stage, if you get what I mean. So if you kiss someone, and they kiss you back, that's consent for a bit of touching, whereas just touching them straight away would be sexual assault, because you don't have that implied consent.
Scary Monster: That the age of consent is 16, anyone below that is a minor and you can't have relations with them. Also, that you have to have positive consent from someone who is capable of giving it.
purplestarfish: Some sort of clear agreement that what is about to happen is okay with those concerned.
Geneve: But if a girl is too drunk to know whether it's rape or not, is that rape?
Randomgirl: It could be.
purplestarfish: Hmmm, I'm not so sure. I remember one time, things went further and further and I tried to say no, but the guy got angry - because I implied consent? I'm not so sure about that one.
I'm With Stupid: Yeah, saying no kind of instantly removes any implied consent though.
purplestarfish: I see, but for him, it's almost like I'd said yes from move one.
MrCold: It doesn't matter even if you had literally said yes. You say no later and that's all that matters.
Geneve: I agree. It's that progression, it's implied, but really you're only implying the next stage not the full deal.
Jim V: So, do people think that being drunk makes people more likely to be raped?
Randomgirl: Yes.
Geneve: Yes, you're more likely for anything to happen.
PreciousAndLoveIt: Not necessarily, but it makes you an easier target.
Geneve: You behave in a way you might not usually when drinking, often with the opposite sex. Sex is encouraged by the music in clubs these days.
I'm With Stupid: Most people are more likely to be raped in social situations, and in this country, that means alcohol. In some countries, someone is probably more likely to be raped by their husband without any alcohol at all.
PreciousAndLoveIt: I think there's a lot of rape going on between husbands and wives in this country, but it's just relatively unheard of. Most of the cases are young girls out clubbing etc.
Jim V: Well the consent law is clear - people need to show that what they do is comfortable and consenting for the person with them.
Randomgirl: I think rape in a domestic violence situation is probably the commonest form of rape here too.
Jim V: If a person is drunk and is raped, do you think that makes them less likely to report the crime?
Randomgirl: Yes.
purplestarfish: Yes.
I'm With Stupid: Undoubtedly.
purplestarfish: I think that they think it's less likely that they'll get the same support in comparison to someone who was sober when they were raped, which may or may not be true.
Geneve: That's because it's wobbly as to whether it's a crime or not, maybe they did consent?
purplestarfish: But what if they didn't?
Jim V: Purple, are you saying the police or doctors would be less willing to help if a person had been drunk when it happened?
I'm With Stupid: Probably more a case that they think no one will believe them.
purplestarfish: I'm not sure, but I think that's what some people think. I know people who have blamed themselves for being drunk and therefore have not got help.
Randomgirl: I think the police support victims if it's reported no matter what the situation.
I'm With Stupid: The defence lawyers, on the other hand...
Scary Monster: Maybe not less willing to get help, but less hopeful of it being any use.
purplestarfish: Yeah.
PreciousAndLoveIt: What if someone was too scared to keep saying no, and felt like they had to say yes. What's that about? Is that still classed as rape even though the other person never actually forced it on them?
MrCold: Maybe, it depends on why they were scared. I mean that if they were scared because of a threat (for example) then yes, it's rape. But if they were scared for their own internal reason and never gave an indication they'd changed their mind I wouldn't say it was rape.
purplestarfish: Yup, I think it would still be rape.
**Helen** How about a jury in a court - would it affect their response?
I'm With Stupid: An interesting thing I heard was that defence lawyers are keen on all-female juries because they're less likely to convict. I don't know how true that is though.
Randomgirl: Probably because the general public judge rape victims very harshly.
purplestarfish: People still hold the view "Silly girl - shouldn't have drunk that much in the first place."
Geneve: I probably hold that view.
purplestarfish: Shouldn't really be limiting it to women, my bad. But yeah, I think being drunk affects the victims likelihood of reporting it in the first place.
PreciousAndLoveIt: Yeah, not every rape victim is drunk and/or female. I think a lot of people forget that sometimes.
Kimbers: I was a member of the jury in a rape case and it was a ratio of 10 men to two women, interesting because it was rare apparently.
Jim V: Well everyone, that's all we've got time for, thanks for the debate.
Geneve: Don't get too drunk, baaaaad things could happen!
**Helen**: Really good to hear all your views guys.
Jim V: Thanks so much everyone, it's been a really interesting debate.
If you'd like to find out more about the issues raised in this debate take a look at our drinking section and watch the video debates. If you're worried or have a question about any of the topics raised then you can contact an advisor in confidence through askTheSite.
Live debate: Drunk and in danger?
On the back of our video debates about alcohol, sex and risky behavior, we hosted a live debate in the chat room to hear your views.
Jim V: Well then folks, for people who didn't see the videos, I'll start with a general question. How do people feel about alcohol, is it a big part of your nights out?
Randomgirl: I can take it or leave it.
**Helen**: Is that the same for your mates do you think Randomgirl?
Randomgirl: When I was younger it was very important. I think now it depends which of my friends. It varies. I don't often do big nights out now, more quiet nights down the pub.
Jim V: How about everyone else?
purplestarfish: I've never really been much of a drinker.
I'm With Stupid: Sometimes, it depends on what sort of night. There are definitely nights where I go out for a few drinks and then others where you go to watch a band or a comedy show and the drink is incidental.
Jim V: Do people feel the atmosphere is different when you're drinking, compared to a night when you drink less?
purplestarfish: It can be hard if the people you're with drink a lot and you're sober.
Randomgirl: Drinking less, the atmosphere can be better.
I'm With Stupid: I agree.
Randomgirl: Unless you feel like drinking lots.
I'm With Stupid: Lol
MrCold: You can always pretend. I did it once, though it was a joke. Everyone knew I wasn't drinking.
I'm With Stupid: I reckon it's more relaxing to drink less, whereas drinking more is during those mad night out situations.
purplestarfish: But if you're the only one drinking less, it can get quite stressful if all your friends start doing things you think they'll regret.
Randomgirl: Last time I drank loads was at my flat at a cocktail party. I was sick twice the next day. I ended up getting off with a couple of my (female) friends.
Jim V: Talking of not drinking when other people are - do people think, even today, that on a night out someone not drinking is still looked down on?
purplestarfish: Don't really think so.
I'm With Stupid: I went out on Saturday. One of our friends wasn't drinking and I didn't really notice to be honest. The only difference is they tend to get bored quicker and go home earlier. It's probably worse for the person not drinking than anyone else.
Randomgirl: When I was 18 I couldn't drink for a bit because I was on medication and I felt really self conscious on nights out.
**Helen**: Has anyone had to look after a mate recently on a night out? What was it like?
purplestarfish: I had a friend who drank too much and got pretty ill (had to call an ambulance). It wasn't really that cool. But that was when we were about 14. Not really sure if his drinking habits have changed much, would be interesting to see if he still goes that far.
Randomgirl: Yeah, it happened when we were at uni. We had to get the ambulance out for one of our mates.
I'm With Stupid: Only in the sense that you try not to lose each other if there's only two of you left, which happened on Saturday. I used to have a mate at uni who went through a phase of getting into fights a lot, and we had to break it up and bring him home. After a few times though, we all got tired of doing it and didn't bother any more.
purplestarfish: I don't mind keeping an eye out for friends when we're out, but when I have to constantly pick up the pieces it gets a bit tiresome. I get annoyed by people who blame their actions on being drunk, like its some sort of excuse, grrr.
Jim V: Do you think that drinking makes you a different person then? Does it make you do things you wouldn't do otherwise or just give you permission to behave differently?
I'm With Stupid: Haha, my philosophy is that if you're a wanker after a few pints, you're just a wanker anyway. It also means it only takes me an hour to ask a girl out, rather than a week.
purplestarfish: Haha sounds good!
Randomgirl: It makes you more confident.
purplestarfish: Yeah.
Randomgirl: I used to get up to mischief as a drunken teenager.
Jim V: Like what Randomgirl? (If you don't mind saying.)
Randomgirl: I once gave my work colleague a blow job and deposited it in another work colleagues mouth when I was 16, general sexual stuff, embarrassing things.
**Helen** Has anyone had an experience where they felt less safe because they were drunk or you've looked back the next day and realised you were more vulnerable than you thought?
I'm With Stupid: Yeah, I once thought I was perfectly safe on a tightrope. It didn't take me until the next day to realise I wasn't though. Broke my nose. Face first into the ground. Good party though.
**Helen**: Ouch!
purplestarfish: Reminds me of that advert that was on TV.
Scary Monster: Not personally, but Ive watched someone who thought they could do things they couldn't when they were drunk.
Randomgirl: I was sexually assaulted on a night out, but I wasn't drunk. I wouldn't have been there if drink wasn't involved as I was out drinking with my school friends (we were 15).
Jim V: I'm sorry to hear that Randomgirl.
**Helen**: Was the other person drunk?
Randomgirl: Not that I'm aware of. I think he was a pervert.
purplestarfish: Hmm, I've got into some trouble in the early hours, but think thats mainly down to the other person being drunk. But saying that, if I had had more to drink, it may have been harder to deal with the situation.
I'm With Stupid: Yeah, I think that it's being around drunk people that can make you at risk, more than being drunk yourself. Although I suppose you're better able to get yourself out of a confrontation if you're sober.
Scary Monster: I don't tend to drink to the point where I feel unsafe. I witnessed a brilliant one though, a guy thought he was not that drunk and entirely capable of balancing along a large log through a fire. No prizes for guessing he fell off, his leg hit the embers and the embers stuck to the hair on his legs. He had huge burn marks in the morning. I took him off through the woods on the campsite, up to the toilets, took his shorts off and put his leg under the tap. The conversation the following morning went along the lines of ' I would have never have let you done that if I was sober'.
I'm With Stupid: There was one time in Blackpool when I was monumentally drunk. I had to try and find a small B&B across town out of the thousands there. I did actually find that quite scary the next day.
**Helen** Do you think that you might trust someone you 'kind of know' on a night out after a few drinks, more so than if you were sober?
purplestarfish: Maybe, I think everyone becomes more friendly after a few drinks. Friend of a friend at the start of the night somehow ends up as your best mate by the end.
Randomgirl: That's what I did, trusted someone I shouldn't have.
I'm With Stupid: Yeah there's that. But I wouldn't say I trust them any more than normal. I'm just friendlier.
**Helen**: Purplestarfish, do you think it's good or can it be a problem?
purplestarfish: It can be a problem I think, because when you're drunk its harder to tell someone's true intentions. I think you become less aware and don't pick up on things that you would if you were sober, generally of course.
Scary Monster: I don't tend to go out and get very drunk unless I'm with people I know and trust well, mainly because I always see the nice side in people when I'm drunk.
Jim V: Talking of intentions, if someone of the opposite sex offered to buy you a drink, would you feel it's a friendly thing or would you feel there's something implied there?
Randomgirl: There is something implied unless it's a mate.
**Helen**: Which is...
Randomgirl: That you're interested in talking to them for about as long as it takes you to drink a drink.
Scary Monster: I'd take something implied unless it was a friend. Although I've found my male friends are very insistent on not letting me buy my own drinks when they're drunk.
Randomgirl: I never accept drinks from people who aren't friends.
Scary Monster: I'd generally only take it as implying interest as a starting point.
Randomgirl: You can't accept a drink and then not even talk to someone can you?
Jim V: Let's turn the question around. If you offer to buy someone a drink, rather than accept a drink, what does that imply to you?
Randomgirl: I only offer drinks to my friends.
purplestarfish: To be honest, I've never offered to buy someone a drink, apart from friends.
Jim V: How about friends of friends later on in a night?
Randomgirl: If they are in the round then yeah.
purplestarfish: Maybe, if we've got chatting, but yeah more of a group thing.
I'm With Stupid: I don't buy drinks for girls I'm interested in usually, only friends. In which case, it implies "I don't care how expensive the next club is compared to here, you owe me a drink."
PreciousAndLoveIt: I don't have this problem yet. I can't get the rounds in. However, I have had drinks bought for me.
purplestarfish: I still struggle with the "getting the round in" etiquette. I find the ordering hard, as a pretty much non-drinker.
**Helen** Precious - from someone you didn't know?
PreciousAndLoveIt: Yeah, but I kindly refused it, haha. I have taken a drink from someone I don't know once though, but that's because he was talking to one of my mates and it was a can so he couldn't sneak anything into it, otherwise I wouldn't have taken it.
Jim V: How do people feel about the attitude that if something like a sexual assault happens to someone, then what they wear or if they were drunk plays a part in it?
purplestarfish: I think it's stupid. No one asks to be sexually assaulted, ever.
MrCold: I think the opinion isn't they were really asking for it, only that it's risky behaviour (that's not saying I agree with it).
purplestarfish: Yeah.
I'm With Stupid: Depends what they say. What someone's wearing is bullshit. So is being drunk in terms of contributing to it. However, I have no issue with offering advice to reduce the likelihood, which may include advice about drinking habits.
purplestarfish: Yup, I mean when girls are passing out wearing very little, not saying it should be this way, but they are probably putting themselves at more risk. Even at house parties and things.
Jim V: Why do you think other people still think that what a woman is wearing or how drunk she is affects whether assault even happened?
MrCold: I'd say that it's two different things. I'd think that to a rapist or such, someone who's stupidly drunk is an easier victim. So in that sense it does affect them being targeted.
Randomgirl: Yeah, aside from the sexual assault (which was very serious) which happened when I wasn't drunk, I've been taken advantage of when I have been drunk, just stuff like blow jobs and stuff though.
Scary Monster: If you're not drunk, or at least not hammered then you've generally got your wits about you.
PreciousAndLoveIt: It's a lot harder to fight someone off when you're drunk.
Scary Monster: Also, if you're not wearing something attractive, then you're not an eye catching target in the first place. I think it stems from the not being able to fight someone off when you're drunk though. If you're aware of your surroundings, you tend to stay away from riskier situations.
Randomgirl: I don't think you have to be attractive to be a target though. It's not usually about sex; it's more about violence and power.
I'm With Stupid: It's ridiculous. Doesn't everybody try to make themselves look attractive for a night out? It really is only a small step away from claiming that a woman who doesn't wear a burkha contributed to her rape. It also insults men too, suggesting they're some sort of animal, who can't control their urges.
Jim V: Thinking about consent, how do people think that should work, especially around alcohol?
purplestarfish: I think that consent shouldn't just be about saying no, but instead making sure its a clear yes.
Randomgirl: Definitely purplestarfish.
MrCold: If both parties are fair and just, they should do nothing if they think the other person might be too out of it.
Scary Monster: I think the other problem with consent is that people often don't seem to consider that the guy might not be in a state to make sure the girl is definitely saying yes.
PreciousAndLoveIt: If you say no whilst youre relatively sober and then they proceed to make you drunker just to get a yes (or being unable to say anything) then it's horrible and I would almost class that as rape.
MrCold: I disagree with the "almost" part.
Randomgirl: Yeah, that is rape. You don't have to say no for it to be rape.
PreciousAndLoveIt: Well yeah, however, how can you prove that it wasn't consented? Or they weren't in the right mind to say no? It depends on how you look at it.
Randomgirl: That doesn't change whether it was rape or not, just because you can't prove it.
PreciousAndLoveIt: I know.
MrCold: Proving things is a different (very sad) story entirely.
Randomgirl: You can rarely prove a rape has happened, but it does happen all the time, every day all over the world.
purplestarfish: Sometimes guys can get a bit annoyed if you suddenly come out with a no, and then that can create a whole other situation.
Scary Monster: I'm not defending rape in any way here, but it always seems that when you are talking about two drunk people, the emphasis is that the guy has to take responsibility for the girl being sober enough to make a decision. That kind of says its alright for a girl to get too drunk to make a decision, but not for a guy.
**Helen**: So if you had to describe the law on consent to someone from another country - what would you tell them?
I'm With Stupid: I'd tell them it's your job to make sure the other person consents. Which I think can be implied consent. I think every "stage" up to getting into bed with someone is implied consent for the next stage, if you get what I mean. So if you kiss someone, and they kiss you back, that's consent for a bit of touching, whereas just touching them straight away would be sexual assault, because you don't have that implied consent.
Scary Monster: That the age of consent is 16, anyone below that is a minor and you can't have relations with them. Also, that you have to have positive consent from someone who is capable of giving it.
purplestarfish: Some sort of clear agreement that what is about to happen is okay with those concerned.
Geneve: But if a girl is too drunk to know whether it's rape or not, is that rape?
Randomgirl: It could be.
purplestarfish: Hmmm, I'm not so sure. I remember one time, things went further and further and I tried to say no, but the guy got angry - because I implied consent? I'm not so sure about that one.
I'm With Stupid: Yeah, saying no kind of instantly removes any implied consent though.
purplestarfish: I see, but for him, it's almost like I'd said yes from move one.
MrCold: It doesn't matter even if you had literally said yes. You say no later and that's all that matters.
Geneve: I agree. It's that progression, it's implied, but really you're only implying the next stage not the full deal.
Jim V: So, do people think that being drunk makes people more likely to be raped?
Randomgirl: Yes.
Geneve: Yes, you're more likely for anything to happen.
PreciousAndLoveIt: Not necessarily, but it makes you an easier target.
Geneve: You behave in a way you might not usually when drinking, often with the opposite sex. Sex is encouraged by the music in clubs these days.
I'm With Stupid: Most people are more likely to be raped in social situations, and in this country, that means alcohol. In some countries, someone is probably more likely to be raped by their husband without any alcohol at all.
PreciousAndLoveIt: I think there's a lot of rape going on between husbands and wives in this country, but it's just relatively unheard of. Most of the cases are young girls out clubbing etc.
Jim V: Well the consent law is clear - people need to show that what they do is comfortable and consenting for the person with them.
Randomgirl: I think rape in a domestic violence situation is probably the commonest form of rape here too.
Jim V: If a person is drunk and is raped, do you think that makes them less likely to report the crime?
Randomgirl: Yes.
purplestarfish: Yes.
I'm With Stupid: Undoubtedly.
purplestarfish: I think that they think it's less likely that they'll get the same support in comparison to someone who was sober when they were raped, which may or may not be true.
Geneve: That's because it's wobbly as to whether it's a crime or not, maybe they did consent?
purplestarfish: But what if they didn't?
Jim V: Purple, are you saying the police or doctors would be less willing to help if a person had been drunk when it happened?
I'm With Stupid: Probably more a case that they think no one will believe them.
purplestarfish: I'm not sure, but I think that's what some people think. I know people who have blamed themselves for being drunk and therefore have not got help.
Randomgirl: I think the police support victims if it's reported no matter what the situation.
I'm With Stupid: The defence lawyers, on the other hand...
Scary Monster: Maybe not less willing to get help, but less hopeful of it being any use.
purplestarfish: Yeah.
PreciousAndLoveIt: What if someone was too scared to keep saying no, and felt like they had to say yes. What's that about? Is that still classed as rape even though the other person never actually forced it on them?
MrCold: Maybe, it depends on why they were scared. I mean that if they were scared because of a threat (for example) then yes, it's rape. But if they were scared for their own internal reason and never gave an indication they'd changed their mind I wouldn't say it was rape.
purplestarfish: Yup, I think it would still be rape.
**Helen** How about a jury in a court - would it affect their response?
I'm With Stupid: An interesting thing I heard was that defence lawyers are keen on all-female juries because they're less likely to convict. I don't know how true that is though.
Randomgirl: Probably because the general public judge rape victims very harshly.
purplestarfish: People still hold the view "Silly girl - shouldn't have drunk that much in the first place."
Geneve: I probably hold that view.
purplestarfish: Shouldn't really be limiting it to women, my bad. But yeah, I think being drunk affects the victims likelihood of reporting it in the first place.
PreciousAndLoveIt: Yeah, not every rape victim is drunk and/or female. I think a lot of people forget that sometimes.
Kimbers: I was a member of the jury in a rape case and it was a ratio of 10 men to two women, interesting because it was rare apparently.
Jim V: Well everyone, that's all we've got time for, thanks for the debate.
Geneve: Don't get too drunk, baaaaad things could happen!
**Helen**: Really good to hear all your views guys.
Jim V: Thanks so much everyone, it's been a really interesting debate.
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