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01152009 Thursday Jan 15, 2009

Are we right to use the term 'monging-out'?

If you use the phrases “lynch-pin” or “on the nail” you are using phrases that derive from slavery. You probably didn’t know that, and now that you do, would you stop using those phrases?

It’s an interesting question and one we’ve had to tackle this week. The phrase in question was “monging out”, and it’s appeared in an article on looking after yourself, that has been on the site since September 2006. We received a complaint about the use of the phrase because, as the correspondent points out, “it derives from a perjorative term for people who have Down’s Syndrome, and refers to a sad period of our social history when adults with a learning disability were abandoned in front of the TV, if they were lucky.”

Perhaps it’s my ignorance, but I didn’t know that, and hadn’t made the connection. A quick straw poll in the office suggests other people didn’t get the association with Down’s Syndrome, and took the phrase to mean being a coach potato. Nor do I believe that writer intended to make any connection with people who have Down’s Syndrome. And, having been on the website for two-and-a-half years, with just one complaint, it’s doesn’t appear that large parts of the general population are aware of its origins either.

The correspondent complains that use of the word “only perpetuates negative stereotypes”, and yet if few people actually understand the connection, what negative stereotype is it reinforcing?  Those of a certain age know why the word spastic is generally deemed offensive in the UK, yet acceptable in the US. I remember being hauled up by a teacher for using the word ‘wally’ to describe someone, and then being told that it was offensive because it referred to an individual called Wallace who had been misunderstood. There is no real evidence that this is true (most accounts seem to suggest that it comes from a 1974 music festival in Stonehenge), but Wally is offensive enough that the Where’s Wally books were renamed Where’s Waldo when they launched in the States.

We certainly don’t set out cause offence on TheSite.org, but we’re here to reflect the lives of young people aged 16-24, and that’s as much about the language as the attitude. We’d never use the kind of language Prince Harry used to describe a fellow solider, and equally most likely steer away from the term Chris Moyles used to describe a ringtone he didn’t like. But our language has moved on far less in the last fifty years than at any point in its history, and the notion that a word was once offensive means it shall forever more be so seems is, in my opinion, a backwards step. Stephen Fry has the most excellent argument about why fretting about ‘correct’ language is dangerous.

It’s for that reason we’ve left the term in. But we’re happy to debate it and I’d welcome you comments on whether you think that was right.

Posted by Olly ( 3:38 PM ) Link to this post  |  Comments[14]

Comments:

I am sorry, but your argument is both incoherrant and ridiculous. No, you are not right to use terms like Monging Out any more than you would say something is spasticated or retarded. All of those terms are deemed highly offensive, not only by myself, but by many others as well, as is shown by your correspondant.


The phrase itself I would consider parallel, if not more offensive than Nigger. I seriously do not understand how, once it has been pointed out to you, you can have the arrogance and the self rightious small mindedness to keep said term up, and furthermore highlight your bigotry by posting a message to try to defend yourself.


In referance to the first two phrases, no i did not know that they were from slavery, but so is the aforementioned "nigger", which is something that I am sure you would not use as it is deemed more offensive by yourselves.


So, why do you then disagree with Chris Moyles using Gay in the way he did? Using your logic, it is a term that means Happy and so should not be cautioned or even cared about. Now that is not my opinion, nor yours by accounts displayed. So why fight predjudice and discrimination towards race and sexuality, but not those with learning disabilities? I take it your not sexist as well, are you?


Instead of perhaps trying to defend the indefensable, you should open your mind and encourage people to learn, which I am sure is the true purpose of this site.


Perhaps no-one has complained before because the site is not popular and no-one knows about it? I dont know, but I would have however thought your reader would have picked up on it...


Oh and finally kudos for including Stephen Fry at the end there. Well Done chap. it just screams to everyone "I can't fight my argument, so I will drop a pop culture icon in there to fight it for me. No-one will argue with them..."

Posted by James on January 16, 2009 at 05:24 PM GMT+00:00 #

Sorry, but to me this seems terrible.
"monging out", as you say, derives from Down's Syndrome, because people with it were likened to Mongolians. So effectively, you are saying that the target of speech is like someone with Down's Syndrome. This - to me - is nothing like the two phrases listed in the first paragraph, as they are phrases coined in the slave industry. The equivalent would be "slaving out".
Also, "monging out" is discrimination against people with Down's Syndrome. Like the phrase "window licker", is is implying that people with Down's Syndrome are somehow inferior, and spend their time - as the complaint says - "abandoned in front of the TV, if they were lucky.¿.
Do you not see how this is offensive?

Posted by matt on January 16, 2009 at 05:25 PM GMT+00:00 #

Sorry, got a typo their - "window licker", is is implying that people - is meant to be "window licker", it is implying that people.

Posted by matt on January 16, 2009 at 05:29 PM GMT+00:00 #

"The correspondent complains that use of the word ¿only perpetuates negative stereotypes¿, and yet if few people actually understand the connection, what negative stereotype is it reinforcing?" Even if few people understand it, it is still reinforcing a negative stereotype. Imbecile.

And by the way, you say that "we¿re here to reflect the lives of young people aged 16-24". I'm in that age group, and i've never heard that phrase used anywhere other than in books and websites.
Hmm... Research needed, methinks?

Posted by Anonymous on January 16, 2009 at 05:47 PM GMT+00:00 #

Hi.

As the person who started this debate I feel I should respond. Thank you for the opportunity, at least its out there for debate.

Firstly, I think I maybe over egged the connections to historical connotations. Perhaps a simpler example would be to pose the question...Would you use the term mongol as a term referring to someone on your site? I assume you wouldn't use spastic or retard. Monging out is irrefutably from the same source.

Second, it seems really simple to replace that term without losing meaning in your text...and avoid any offence?

I don't quite get your example of using terms linked to the slave trade. The terms you site are in common usage from a despicable and unforgivable past, but they are not referring to a person or people in a pejorative way today and they don't carry that history with them. Unfortunately people still use Mong and similar as terms of abuse today. Maybe in 200 years it will be different but I don't think you should be reinforcing them.

Lastly you seem to defend your use because of ignorance of its origins. Really, you had no idea that Mongol, Mong, monging are used as terms of offence? If that is so I am surprised and even accepting your defence maybe you could use it as an opportunity to learn and move forward. I had never intended to get embroiled in a debate about this and who knows maybe you can convince me that the world has moved on so much that its now acceptable. I confess I will take some convincing.

Posted by Ray on January 16, 2009 at 06:45 PM GMT+00:00 #

I am in complete agreeance with all the above comments, I find the term highly offencive. I have a brother with downs syndrome & remember at school him being called a mong & me being the mongs sister. It doesn't happen as much now, but there is still people out there who will use this term aimed at my brother. It is a horrible thing to be labelled with a tag & I have always hated the fact that monging out has been accepted as a term. Maybe you & those in your office havn't heard of this before, but surely now that you have been made aware that it IS offencive it should be removed from your site & you could use "coach potato" instead.

Posted by Jo on January 16, 2009 at 09:15 PM GMT+00:00 #

P3WND

Posted by 10.0.0.8 on January 16, 2009 at 10:40 PM GMT+00:00 #

:(

Posted by anon on January 17, 2009 at 12:07 PM GMT+00:00 #

Here's a couple of examples of the word being used by young people in a totally non-offensive way. Yes, they're on the internet but language in a discussion forum does reflect real life.

http://www.urbandictionary.com/define.php?term=monged

http://www.thestudentroom.co.uk/showthread.php?t=775240

If anything the term refers to being seriously wasted/drug addled.

Jo, I really feel for you and your brother - I went to a school with a few people who had downs and if anyone had dared to be that horrid then they would have been the ones who got bullied. Shame on them. I'm also surprised that the people at your school knew of the term - I was only made aware of it through English at school because the term mongol was referred to in early 20th Century poetry.

Overall, I think many people disassociate the term 'mong' from 'monged'. Also, I remember people calling others at school 'mongy' if they weren't cool enough, or didn't wear the right clothes - again totally removed from the term mongol or downs and totally removed from the term 'monged out.' Someone who is 'monged out' doesn't become a 'mong' in any sense of the word.

Maybe TheSite.org should learn from this and remove the phrase, or maybe people should become more accepting of the fact that the intention behind the use of the term 'monged out' doesn't in anyway relate (now) to the intention of the word 'mong'.

Posted by Jayne on January 17, 2009 at 05:29 PM GMT+00:00 #

Ooh, almost forgot my favourite example -

http://www.flickr.com/photos/nataliejohnson/2994491525/

Posted by Jayne on January 17, 2009 at 05:53 PM GMT+00:00 #

monging not meant to be offensive, Harry didn't mean to be offesnsive using the P word, but it offended all the same. monging hurts people like Jo so why use it?

on line entomology dictionary gives definition here of mongol:

http://www.etymonline.com/index.php?term=Mongol

Posted by wild_wood on January 17, 2009 at 06:26 PM GMT+00:00 #

Hi,

You can read my response here:
http://www.thesite.org/thesiteblog/tsblog/entry/monging_out_a_response

Cheers,


Olly

Posted by Olly on January 19, 2009 at 09:29 AM GMT+00:00 #

Hello,
I would like to say first of all that the large thrust of your arguement is ridiculous and ignorant. But more specifically I would like to talk about the etymology of the terms 'linch-pin' and 'on the nail' both of which you state have there origins in slavery. This is simply untrue a linch pin is "a pin inserted through holes at the end of an axle, so as to secure a wheel" and the term 'on the nail' comes from the practice of paying money on the pillars or 'nails' of the Bristol Corn Exchange.
I have to wonder where you found any link to slavery. It seems to me that maybe you have a Bill O'Reilly-esque trait for making up fact to support your arguement.

Posted by Ed on January 21, 2009 at 11:04 PM GMT+00:00 #

Hmmm ... perhaps before most of you start a debate about a slang phrase, you ought to learn how to speak and spell the Queen's English. You're ... Your. Cite ... Site ... "shown by your correspondant" ??? I could type for ages ...

That said, I do agree that such sloppy, derogatory, slang phrases such as 'monging', 'spaz/spas' and 'Gay' should not be used in public as the person you offend might just be bigger than you. But then, if you feel the need to use such derogatory phrases, you probably need watering twice a week and feeding on Baby Bio in the Spring and only understand the syntax of the fist.

Posted by Graham on March 23, 2009 at 04:59 PM GMT+00:00 #

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